Excuse Me Sir It Appears That Someone Is Endeavouring To Contact You Telephonically Shall I Tell The
THE COURT: Mr. Fortier, if you'll resume the stand, please. You may continue. MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor. BY MR. HARTZLER: Q. Mr. Fortier, when we took a break, I think you had just concluded telling us about a telephone conversation after you returned from Kansas in December of 1994. I may have asked you if you had any further contact with Mr. McVeigh that year. Did you? A. No, sir. Q. So we're now going to move into 1995. Is that right?
excuse me sir it appears that someone is endeavouring to contact you telephonically shall i tell the
A. Yes. Q. Do you recall your first contact with Mr. McVeigh in 1995? A. He had given me a call and asked me to go meet him in a motel room at Kingman. Q. And when was that approximately? A. Late January, early February, around there. Q. Your daughter's birthday is what? A. February 14. Q. Was it before, or after her birthday? Do you remember? A. It was before. Q. And do you recall the Super Bowl of that year by any chance? A. Not really. Q. Do you recall the motel room that you were -- that you went to? A. Yes. Q. Where was that? A. It was on the eastern -- excuse me -- the western outskirts of Kingman. Q. And did you meet Mr. McVeigh there? A. Yes. Me and my wife traveled there. Q. Tell us what happened. A. We went there and we parked our vehicle and we were walking to the room that Tim told me he would be at, and I noticed what I thought was his bags in the back of this small station wagon. It had Michigan plates on it. And I had already known about his other vehicle getting totaled, so I figured that was his car, his new car. We knocked on the door and went into the motel. We greeted each other, and Tim had asked me if I had done any gun shows yet. I told him I had not. And he became upset. He didn't become verbally upset. He just became real quiet and wouldn't -- it was very hard to make small talk with him. So we just stayed there for a short time, maybe 20 minutes at the most, and then me and my wife left. Q. Did you see him again after that meeting? A. Yes. Q. Where was that? A. He had moved from that motel to another motel. Q. Do you recall the name of that motel? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Do you recall where it was? A. Yes. It was in Kingman. Q. Where? Located where? A. Near Andy Devine and Stockton Hill, the crossroads. Q. All right. You met him there? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall approximately how long or how soon after the first meeting? A. Within days. Q. And describe for us the meeting you had at that motel. A. I don't really remember anything specifically happening. We were just talking. We just met, was watching TV. He had moved to another motel shortly after that, where I met him again. He gave me some items. He gave me a toolbox that had some other items in it, some tow straps; and what I remember specifically is he wanted me to read this paper that he had wrote for his sister to turn in as a term paper to where she was going to college. Q. What was the subject matter? A. Gun control. Q. Okay. What are tow straps? A. Cloth straps that you can tow vehicles with, attach two vehicles together and you can tow them. Q. Did you have any further discussion during this time period with Mr. McVeigh about selling of weapons that you had at gun shows? A. Yes. He was going to help me set up some gun shows, and he did. He set up a gun show in Reno, Nevada. Q. Any others? A. He also set one up in St. George and one in Tucson. Q. Did you actually attend those gun shows? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who did you attend the gun shows with? A. The one in Reno and the one in St. George, I attended with Tim. And the one in Tucson, I attended with my wife. Q. And did you sell some of the guns at those gun shows? A. Yes, sir. Q. Make some money? A. Yes, sir. Q. And did you keep all the money that you made in selling the weapons at the gun shows? A. Not all of it. The very first gun show, the one in Reno, I traveled with Tim, and I made quite a bit of money on the first day. And gun shows are usually two days long; and the evening after the first day of the gun show, I was in the motel room. And Tim told me that he had been talking with Terry, and he told me that Terry was really upset with me for giving me those weapons and that now to make up for it, he, Terry, wanted me to give him $2,000 and we would call it even. After some thought, I decided that that would probably be my best bet, was to just give him $2,000; but I didn't want to give it to him all at once. So what me and Tim decided was I was going to give Tim a thousand dollars from this first gun show and then pay him back -- and then give him a thousand dollars later. Q. And did you do that? A. Yes, I did. Q. So you gave him a total of $2,000 for him to give to Terry Nichols based on what he told you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever purchase any false identification kits? A. I did, back in the fall of '94. Q. Explain the circumstances of that purchase. A. Tim had been asking me to max out my credit cards and give him the money so that he would have money to live on, because he wasn't planning on working. And I wasn't willing to do that; but what I was willing to do was to send away and get him some false identification that he may somehow get credit cards using false ID and then he could max them out, more or less just rip off the credit card company. Q. What's that term "max out" mean? A. Cash advance the credit card for as much as you can. Q. And then not pay it back? A. Well, that was the general idea, yes. Q. And did you actually take steps to obtain the false identification cards? A. Yes. I looked in the back of a Soldier of Fortune magazine, and I wrote to a company for them to send me some order forms, which they did; and then I ordered some false identification. Q. In whose name did you order the false identification? A. The identification came back blank. The name I was using was Tim Tuttle, and I addressed it to my home. Q. Why did you use the name Tim Tuttle? A. Because I considered this -- these IDs were Tim's and this whole deal was Tim's. I also was aware that he was probably going to do something illegal or that ripping off the credit card company is an illegal act, so I went ahead and used Tim's alias. Q. So you already knew that that was a name that he had used? A. Yes. Q. How did you know that? A. From picking up his mail at the mail room where he had a mailbox. A lot of the time, his mail was addressed to Tim Tuttle, and sometimes it was addressed to Tim McVeigh. Q. The mail room is located where? A. On Stockton Hill Road in Kingman, Arizona. Q. Is it located -- A. Excuse me. Q. Is it located near anything that you're familiar with? A. Yes. It's right beside a place where my wife used to work. Q. After you sent away for these false identification kits to some company, did you receive them? A. Yes. Q. And what was it that you actually received? A. I received a blank certificate of birth, a blank driver's license, and a blank Social Security card. Q. What did you do with those blank forms? A. By the time I got them, Tim wasn't around no more; so I just stuck them inside my dresser -- I mean my desk. I had a little cubbyhole in my desk. Q. At your house? A. Yes. Q. And how long did they remain there? A. Until about February of '95. Q. Okay. What happened then? A. Tim asked me if I had ever gotten that stuff. I believe he may have seen it at some time, or maybe I had told him about it. I'm not sure. But he was aware of those items and he asked me about them, and I said that they were probably still up in the cubbyhole in my desk. And he went and he rooted around in my desk. I'm not sure if he ever found them or not. Q. Do you know whatever happened to those forms? A. I believe I know what happened to them now. Q. Based on what your wife has told you? A. Yes. Q. Otherwise, other than what she's told you, do you have any knowledge of what happened to them? A. No, sir. Q. Other than the trips that you took to the Reno and St. George's gun shows with Mr. McVeigh in early 1995, approximately how long did he remain in the Kingman area from when he first arrived, as you told us late January, early February? A. Until sometime in the earlier part of April. Q. And how often did you see him during that several-month period of time? A. Quite often. Q. Did you do any things with him? A. Yes. Q. Were you working during this time period? A. No, sir, I wasn't. Q. Why was that? A. When I got back from the trip to Kansas, I had a disagreement with my employers over some items or -- excuse me, over what they were calling a Christmas bonus, and I subsequently quit. Q. How much Christmas bonus did you receive? A. $50. Q. And was that the source of the disagreement? A. It was, you could say, the straw that broke the camel's back. Q. Okay. So you quit. A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you -- pardon me -- obtain employment after that? A. No, sir. Q. What was your source of income? A. My income -- my income tax refund, the weapons. Me and Jim Rosencrans, my neighbor, had found these wooden crates out in the desert; and we had sold some of them to some people, making a little bit of money. Just stuff like that. Q. Did you also receive a monthly check from the military? A. Yes. Q. Why was that? A. From the V A. I have a 10 percent disability from the military. Q. What's the nature of your disability? A. I had a few times while I was in the service dislocated my shoulder, and they subsequently operated twice on my shoulder and gave me a 10 percent disability. Q. Did you also get some financial assistance from your parents or your wife's parents? A. Lori's parents were quite generous. Q. You mentioned that you had some difficulty with your back and that's why you had rented a large car, wanting to rent a van. Did you ever do anything about the back problem you had? A. Yes. I had for a year went to go see a chiropractor, and he wasn't helping me. And then I went to the VA hospital in Prescott, and they had admitted me to a two-week back school, is what they called it, in their hospital. I was admitted between March 6 and I think -- somewhere around the 18th. Q. Was Mr. McVeigh in the Kingman area during that period of time? A. Yes, he was staying at my house for that time. Q. So when you went into the hospital, he stayed at your house? A. Yes, sir. Q. And did you have contact with him when he got -- pardon me -- you got out of the VA hospital in Prescott? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall any -- well, let me back up one moment. During these weeks prior to your going into the hospital and getting out of the hospital, had you had any discussions about the bomb plan? A. Not before I went into the hospital. None that I can recall. Q. And then when you got out of the hospital, did you have any further discussion about the bomb plan? A. Yes, sir. What I was doing for my back was just -- I was mostly just laying around and trying not to work it. And in the hospital, they told me that that was the wrong thing to do. They suggested that I take walks at least once a day to exercise my back. That's what me and Tim was doing. He came with me on one of these walks. And during this time, he told me that Terry Nichols didn't want to help him anymore and that he wanted me to help him by going to Kansas and helping him mix the bomb. Q. What did you say? A. I told him no, I would never do something like that. Q. Did he ask for any other assistance, other than mixing the bomb? A. He asked me if I wouldn't do that, if I would at least give him a ride to the desert, if he could get from Las Vegas to the desert -- if he could somehow get to Las Vegas. I told him I wouldn't do that, either. Q. And did you understand why it was he wanted to go to the desert? A. To just -- just to hide out. Q. Did you at some previous occasion have a conversation about his post-bomb plans or his plans after the bombing? A. Not that I recall previous to that. Q. Was there one time that you went out to the desert and he supposedly buried something in the desert, said that he was going to? A. He asked me one day if I wanted to go four-wheel. And he wanted to stash something out near the campsite. It was a bag of -- it was his duffel bag, and it appeared to be full of -- just full of stuff. But there was some indication that there was some cans of food that was in it. Q. I'm sorry. I may have connected these events, and they're not connected in your mind. Is that -- is that right? A. Not at the time. THE COURT: You may go ahead. MR. HARTZLER: Thank you, your Honor. BY MR. HARTZLER: Q. Prior to that conversation you had with Mr. McVeigh when the two of you walked around the block and he asked for your assistance, had you made it clear to him before that that you were not willing to participate? A. Yes, sir. Perfectly clear. Q. And how long after that conversation did Mr. McVeigh remain staying in your house? A. A week. No, let me retract that. Maybe two weeks. Q. What caused him to move out? A. I was going to start baby-sitting my niece, and he moved from my house, saying that he couldn't handle another child being in the house, meaning my child plus another. Q. What was the state of your friendship during this period of time? A. It was deteriorating. Q. Why was that? A. I'm not sure. Tim was starting to call me names and give me dirty looks, and just the general vibes that I was receiving from Tim were negative. Q. Did he once refer to you as being domesticated -- too domesticated? A. Yes. He said it like a curse word, as if that was something that was bad. Q. And was there ever any conversation about leaving your family? A. Yes. He was urging me to leave my wife and travel with him on the road, sort of like being a couple desperados, or something of that nature. Q. You did not agree with that? A. No. I told him specifically I would never leave my wife, "I'm not going to help you do this." Q. Did there come a point when you became fearful of Mr. McVeigh? A. Yes, there did -- it was. Q. Can you describe that for us and explain the reason you were fearful? A. The reason I was fearful was just like I said before: He was giving me these negative vibes, and I wasn't sure if -- what his state of mind was. I had -- he called me on the phone after he had moved from my house to another motel room. He wanted me to come there and pick up a book that he was wanting me to read. And by that time, I was fearful enough that I concealed a weapon on my body -- but I went to go see him -- just in the off chance that something happened. Q. Did your wife go with you? A. No, sir. Q. Did you get the book? A. Yes, I did. Q. What book was that? A. I believe it's called The Rise of the Far Right Extremists. Q. And did you read the book? A. No, I didn't. I looked through it, and Tim had written in the margins. I'm not sure what he wrote. I didn't read it. But he had written all through the book in the margins. Q. Did you have any further contact with Mr. McVeigh before his departure from the Kingman area? A. Yes. When I agreed to -- when I was going to take the book back to him. When I did that, he had another book that he wanted me to read. I'm not sure the name of it, but the -- what he wanted me to read was specifically Chapter No. 2. It was called "The Order." And he also gave me what I considered at a time this little lecture about how he was traveling the high road and I was traveling the low road and that we couldn't be friends no longer. And I was just like, whatever; and I took the books and went back to my house. I read some of that chapter. Q. What was it about? A. It was about this group of people that lived in Colorado. They were like white supremacists. Q. Did you have any further contact with Mr. McVeigh after you got that book? A. Yes. I had contact with him when I took those two books. They were -- by the way, they were library books, Mohave County library books. Me and my wife took them back to his motel room. Q. So Lori accompanied you on this visit back to the motel room? A. Yes, sir. Q. And were you still somewhat fearful of Mr. McVeigh during this period of time? A. All three times that I went to his motel room, I took a weapon with me. Q. Why did you take your wife with you one time? A. Because I didn't think it was probable that he was going to do anything. I was just -- it was just -- I just took the weapon on the off chance that he would do something. Q. Did he also share with you a copy of The Turner Diaries during any period this time? A. While he was still living at my house, he asked me to read The Turner Diaries. I was laying on my couch, and he was walking by and he tossed it down onto my coffee table. I picked it up and flipped through it. And he had highlighted some sentences and some paragraphs and stuff; and since I had already read the book and I didn't have no interest in rereading it -- so I laid it back down on my coffee table. And I don't know what happened to it from then on. Q. When -- the last time that you saw Mr. McVeigh before today was when? A. The last meeting at the motel room. Q. When you and your wife returned the two books, the two library books? A. Yes, sir. Q. And I believe it was at the meeting at the motel room before that that he told you were going on separate paths, or something to that effect? A. Yes, and that we couldn't be friends any longer. Q. When you saw Mr. McVeigh on either of those two visits, did he tell you where he was going? A. No, he did not. Q. Did you think he was going someplace to carry out the bombing? A. What I thought after reading the part of the Chapter No. 2 and listening to what he told me that day in the motel room -- I thought he was going to Colorado to find some real friends, some manly friends. Q. Your reference is that he didn't consider you such a person? Is that what you're trying to imply? A. Yeah. He was degrading me in the motel room is what I'm implying. Q. So what was your understanding of the status of the bombing plan at that point? A. I thought that it was all falling apart and that him and Terry weren't going to do it any longer. Q. Did you consider calling someone and becoming a government informant at that time? A. No, sir, I did not. Q. You realize as you sit here today that you might have stopped this bombing, had you called someone? A. Yes, sir. I live with that knowledge every day. Q. Why didn't you? A. There is really -- there is no excuse that I could offer that would compensate for why I didn't. I think one would have to look at my lifestyle and my friendship with Tim. I -- I had known Tim for quite awhile, eight years up to that point, maybe less than that, six years. But Tim -- well, if you don't consider what happened in Oklahoma, Tim is a good person. He would stop -- he would stop and help somebody that's broken down on